Curse

dagrdagaz · Feb 23, 2011, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Well, i wanted to test a build with and without Cracked Armor...

Then i realized it wouldnt make a difference against the 60AR Master of Damage

El Perma Shadow · Feb 23, 2011, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Or just add a option to click on him to change his armor, be abit easier to implement

LifeInfusion · Feb 24, 2011, 03:35 AM // 03:35

I don't think they will implement this so

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor_rating

+20 armor is 0.7071x damage

+40 armor is half damage from armor-respecting stuff

cracked armor gives 1.4142x damage (from 80 armor to 60 or 100 to 80) then.

Missing HB · Feb 24, 2011, 10:52 AM // 10:52

There are much more important things that aren't even done because they don't care , thus i doubt they will do something about this...
I guess just try on the 2 warrior NPCS who are a bit further on isle of nameless...

dagrdagaz · Feb 24, 2011, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I don't think they will implement this so

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor_rating

+20 armor is 0.7071x damage

+40 armor is half damage from armor-respecting stuff

cracked armor gives 1.4142x damage (from 80 armor to 60 or 100 to 80) then.

Not what i meant/need.
I want to test avarage damage during a time period, with a few hero builds with and without Cracked Armor.

Tried and Triumphed · Feb 24, 2011, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagrdagaz

Not what i meant/need.
I want to test avarage damage during a time period, with a few hero builds with and without Cracked Armor.

That sounds like it is exactly what you needed not to be rude

dagrdagaz · Feb 24, 2011, 06:51 PM // 18:51

NO, i do not need information about what Cracked Armor is and what the damage is from one attack.
I mentioned i wanted to test Hero builds, in regards to how Hero AI is, i cannot predict what the avarage damage from the entire build is gonna be.
If u can i will post the hero builds and u can tell me what the avarage dmage will be (from an entire build).

LifeInfusion · Feb 24, 2011, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagrdagaz

NO, i do not need information about what Cracked Armor is and what the damage is from one attack.
I mentioned i wanted to test Hero builds, in regards to how Hero AI is, i cannot predict what the avarage damage from the entire build is gonna be.
If u can i will post the hero builds and u can tell me what the avarage dmage will be (from an entire build).

As long as they don't use weapons (randomness) and only spells/spirits/etc. it's not going to be hard, Pm me and I'll try to break it down it for you. You can also post it here but it's the suggestion forum. Since the targets are fixed or attacking and not using skills the hero AI isn't going to be tested anyway. Simply using your uncustomized staff with no damage mod with an empty skillbar will cause a change in ~9-12DPS according to the Master of damage so even if he is supposed to be accurate he isn't due to autoattacks.

The strongest builds like MoP and Minion bombers can't even be tested on him. AoEs like Eruption only register as one target. My Searing Flames hero rendered anywhere from 35 to 58DPS and about 29 when he was casting glyphs. (OgNEoMvt5yQ3GrIjmmvAXQLQjA ; 12+1+1 fire, 11+1 energy storage). In theory 14 Fire Searing Flames pumps out 94/(2*0.64+.75)+105/(15*0.64+0.75)+47/(8*0.64+0.75)-106/7+14DPS from burning=63 DPS before energy management like Glowing Gaze and Glyph. However, my hero ran a staff because normally he doesn't use Searing Flames. In theory 14 Fire Searing Flames pumps out 94/(2*0.8+.75)+105/(15*0.8+0.75)+47/(8*0.8+0.75)-94/7 (burning stops)+14DPS from burning =~ 55DPS before energy management like Glyph + attunements and 94/(2*0.8+.75)+105/(15*0.8+0.75)+47/(8*0.8+0.75)+14DPS from burning =~ 68DPS with Mark of Rodgort.

Aftercast is a killer for stuff like this. Even flare spam with 0 recharge has 0.75 aftercast so you push 40/68 listed @16 fire.

...
OgBDkmy8O0CcRTjuNWRGqOBA - Searing Flames
12+1+3 Fire Magic Searing Flames, 11+1 Energy Storage, 6 in whatever (only need 12 energy storage for Glowing gaze so 12 and 13 doesn't matter except for Aura of Restoration's heal)

Searing Flames, Glowing Gaze, Fire attunement, Aura of restoration, Liquid Flame, disabled: Ward of Stability, Glyph, Res

Searing Flames: 106/(3.21) =33.02
Glowing Gaze: 53/(8.13) =6.52
Burning: 14DPS = 14
Liquid Flame: 119/(14.05805)= 8.46
Searing Flames damage is reduced by 1 cast every 7 seconds to reapply burning so -106/7

=47.0DPS vs 60 armor

100 armor + cracked armor = 80 armor = 0.707x damage from armor respecting sources
SF: 33.02 x0.707=23.35
GG: 4.61
LF: 5.98
+14 burning
-106*0.707/7=-10.706 <-- reapply burning every 7 seconds
=32.8 max DPS

SF cast + recharge + aftercast = 1*(0.64+0.36*0.5)+2(0.64+0.36*0.5) +0.75=3.21
GG cast + recharge + aftercast = 1*(0.64+0.36*0.5)+8(0.64+0.36*0.5) +0.75=8.13
LF cast + recharge + aftercast = 1*(0.64+0.3680.5)+15(0.64+0.36*0.5) +0.75=14.05805

If only spamming SF+LF: 23.35+14 from SF+5.98-10.706=32.62DPS

If in a team, realistically you don't need to reapply burning so 32.62+106/7=48DPS

MoD (60 armor) says 58 for 60 armor from my Hero who has 14 fire and only a swift staff, so that's about right. If anything it'll be off by 3DPS, my theoretical numbers say 55: 14 Fire Searing Flames pumps out 94/(1*(0.9+0.1*0.5)+2*(0.8+0.2*0.5)+.75)+105/(1*(0.9+0.1*0.5)+15*(0.8+0.2*0.5)+0.75)+47/(1*(0.9+0.1*0.5)+8*(0.8+0.2*0.5)+0.75)-94/7 (burning stops every 7 seconds)+14DPS from burning=39DPS.

If in a team, realistically you don't need to reapply burning so 39+94/7=52DPS , which is within 10% of MoD's peak 58 damage

This is assuming a 40/40 set which gives 36% half recharge and 36% half cast, cast doesn't matter since half of 2 is 1 recharge so 0.5 cast of Searing Flames isn't helpign anything without Ebon Vanguard Standard of Wisdom.

Note Master of damage doesn't count AoE damage so Liquid Flame vs Fireball is not going to matter. He also doesn't count 100 damage HP reduction from Deep wound.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I saw both Dervishes are the exact same thing so I won't break it down twice. The only difference is Heart of Holy Flame instead of Staggering Force.

OgCjkyrJbSAYQXXgcfPXDYaXjbA - Wounding strike dervish
12+1+1 Scythe, 9+1 Mysticism, 9+1 Earth Prayers
Wounding Strike, Victorious Sweep, Zealous Sweep, Radiant Scythe, Twin Moon Sweep, Chilling Victory, Staggering Force, Zealous Renewal

non-crit:
rand(base-min, base-max) * customize * inscription * 2^((baseline - armor)/40) + plus-dmg

non-scythe crit:
base-max * customize * inscription * 2^(((baseline +20) - armor)/40) + plus-dmg

scythe crit:
base-max * customize * inscription * 2^(((baseline +5) - armor)/40) + plus-dmg

Assume +15% damage mod, +20% (customized) so 9-41 = 12.42-56.58

average damage = 34.5 vs 60 armor, 24.4 vs 80 armor

Scythes critical for 62 base on 60 armor targets, 44 on 80 armor, 31 on 100 armor. We assume cracked armor is always applied so we use 80 armor.

wounding strike = +19, deep wound, bleeding /3seconds (enchantment limited to 6s recharge)
Victorious Sweep = +25 /4 seconds (energy limited but assume Radiant Scythe/zealous sweep handles this)
Radiant scythe = +25 (limited by energy cap ; 2 scythe attacks with an optimal 3 foes in adjacent)
Zealous Sweep = +24 /10 seconds
Twin moon sweep = x2 autoattacks but we can disregard it unless you are using orders or some sort of buff (strength of honor) given that Chilling victory will do more damage and won't take away from Wounding strike , but you can use Zealous Renewal as fuel so count it as every 10 seconds
Chilling Victory = +14, 29 cold damage = +14+29*0.707=20.64damage .. on the same bar with RS you will use it every 3 hits (RS-CV adrenaline cycle)
Staggering force = 38 earth damage = 26.9/6seconds= 4.48/second ... no aftercast
Zealous Renewal = 23 holy every 10 seconds=2.3/second ... no aftercast

No IAS, so 1.5 second attack rate. It's a good idea to use an IAS, Heart of Fury lowers the attack rate to 1 attack 1.125seconds rather than every 1.5seconds. Its the same as +22.2% damage (1/1.5-1/1.125=0.222 or 2/9).

24.4/1.5seconds=16.3DPS base damage ... autoattack damage is very sporadic, even more so with scythes due to the large damage spread. Sometimes you get 17DPS on master of damage, sometimes 28 or 32DPS. But if you just autoattack til he dies, he tells you that you do 25-26DPS @12 scythe and no IAS so I'll just use this number, it'll be close enough to 16 that it won't matter. Higher scythe mastery results in more crits that give you 1.1x max damage (44).

Wounding strike = +19/6=3.17
Victorious sweep +25/4= 6.25 armor ignoring
Radiant scythe is going to be somewhat random, assume a best case scenario with +25 every time and 1.5s per attack.
Zealous sweep = +24/10= 2.4 armor ignoring

WS+VS+RS+ZS+CV+SF=3.17 +6.25 + 25/(2*1.5) + 24/10 + 20.64/(3*1.5) + 4.48 + 2.3=31.5DPS before twin moon sweep and autoattacks

+16.3DPS base damage + 16.3/10 (twin moon)=49.43DPS before deep wound (100Damage every 6 seconds is 16.67DPS...)

As far as the builds go, I don't think that Dervish heroes strip enchants properly, so I'd ditch twin moon for sure. It's only giving you 1.63DPS at most if you use it with Zealous Renewal, 2.71DPS if you use it with Staggering Force and hurt your Wounding Strike recharge. It's be different if you run a Strength of honor or Orders hero (or barbs) since you would get 2 procs of whatever buff you have.

Your build needs an IAS instead of twin moon sweep, in my opinion. Instead of twin moon, running Heart of Fury:

With only one enchant teardown, you get a surefire WS trigger.

Wounding strike = +19/6 + +19/10=3.17+1.9=5.07
Victorious sweep +25/4= 6.25 armor ignoring
Radiant scythe is going to be somewhat random, assume a best case scenario with +25 every time and 1.5s per attack.
Zealous sweep = +24/10= 2.4 armor ignoring

WS+VS+RS+ZS+CV+SF=5.07 +6.25 + 25/(2*1.125) + 24/10 + 20.64/(3*1.25) + 4.48 + 2.3 = 37.12 DPS before autoattacks

+16.3DPS*(1.5/1.125)

= 58.85DPS , assuming no critical hits boost. 14 scythe is not going to do an average 16 damage on 80 armor

When I tested a hero at MoD with 60 armor he gave me 58DPS with the Heart of Holy Flame and Heart of Fury instead of Staggering force and Twin Moon Sweep. With just autoattacks and Heart of Fury at MoD, I got [email protected] scythe so 21.7DPS is conservative as 80 armor would be 22.6DPS based off 0.707x that. However, I got 23-24DPS @14scythe at the MoD with all skills disabled, including Heart of fury so that'd mean 16.3 is the correct (conservative) base DPS.

As far as the builds, I'd run WS any day over Searing Flames. Deep wound is a very powerful condition, whereas spitting out 70ish +burning damage every 1.28 seconds (2*0.64) is not very good because even at its best you need 12seconds for a kill by Searing Flames alone. The 2 dervishes could spike out a target by themselves in 1 chain while the SF ele cannot.

When you can crank out 57-63 armor ignoring with Keystone signet every 1.667seconds (up to 104-114 with Signet of Clumsiness and Unnatural signet and Symbolic Celerity) and have utility interrupts to boot there's no reason to run searing flames.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagrdagaz

Tnx for the offer, but its not gonna be easy.
I wanted to test a Searing Flames (Sousuke) build with somehow (as good as always) only Cracked Armor (casted by me prolly).
And also want to test Sousuke's Searing Flames build in combination with 2 slightly different Derv builds.

One slight problem with Hero's may be is when they actually will cast skills, and in what order.
Hero casters somehow somtimes also will use their weapon when they could use a skill.
With the exact same Derv build i as a player managed to do more damage then Melonni.

Anyway, the builds;

Searing Flames: OgBDkmy8O0CcRTjuNWRGqOBA

The earth ward and res sig will be disabled, and Liquid Flame (useless against MoD) replaced with Fireball.

OgCjkyrJbSAYQXXgcfPXDYaXjbA

OgCjkyrJbSAYQXXgcfPXDYjXjbA

I am curious if the Derv build with Cracked Armor is a better combo with the Searing Flames build, or the other Derv build with the Burning (from HoHF).
Prolly the Cracked Armor one, but i am still curious about the average damages.

dagrdagaz · Feb 26, 2011, 11:34 AM // 11:34

@LifeInfusion, TNX, for the quick and detailed/lenghty reply, didnt expect that !!!
Wanted to reply yesterday, but i am still busy understanding all the theoratical info/calculations.
AND, i have been testing some builds in regards to your post.

One of the 2 things i wanted to test was if a Searing Flames build would do more damage if another Hero would apply Burning.
The idea being Searing Flames more often doing direct damage instead of applying Burning.
That i actually could test on the MoD i realized.
I also tested my WS build with combinations of TMS,HoF,SF and HoHF
Tnx for the Heart of Fury tip, it works good (more dmg) in my WS build!
I have/had Twin Moon Sweep in my WS build for xtra self heal, a dead hero does zero dmg i say.
Yes your healers r supposed to do the healing/preventing party members dying, but they can fail at it.
Heart of Holy Flame does increase the damage output from the Derv build.
But one important thing about Cracked Armor is that,
everyone in your party that does armor respecting damage will do more damage to foes that have their armor lowered due to Cracked Amor.

The 3 min test against MoD can vary a little in resulting avg dmg.
For better results, i did 10 times 3 min tests and took the avarage of those.

Searing Flames hero (Sousuke)
OglDkmy8O0CcRTjuNWbxIDVH
Fire Magic 12+1+2
Energy Storage 11+1
Earth Damage 6
Leadership 0
Customized max dmg Fire Wand with an of Memory and an Hale and Hearty
Collector Flame Artifact with +20% chance Fire Magic +1, and +30HP

The earth Ward is disabled.
Made him Paragon secondary and added Glowing Signet for fun or a little backup energy gain.

Derv Hero (Melonni)
Wounding Strike build: OgCjkyrJbSAYQXXgcfPXDYaXjbA
Avatar of Balthazar build: OgCjkyrJbSuXSXXgcfPXaXjXjbA
Scythe Mastery 12+1+2
Mysticism 9+1
Earth Prayers 9+1
Customized max dmg scythe with Cruel,Fortitude and Strength and Honor mods

I tested the WS build with TMS and SF and with either and both replaced with HoF and HoHF

WS build with TMS+SF: 52dps avg
WS build with TMS+HoHF: 54dps avg
WS build with HoF+SF: 59dps avg
WS build with HoF+HoHF: 60dps avg

I am gonna leave it to personal preference which 2 to use.

Then, the SF testing;
Searing Flames build alone: 36dps avg
AoB build alone: 56dps avg
SF and AoB builds together: 90dps avg

Adding both seperate avarages gives 92dps avg, however both together going at it at MoD gave 90dps avg, thats even 2dps less ?!
So, i am gonna conclude, having another hero apply Burning does not increase dmg output from SF (build)!
Somthing to note is i noticed Sousuke per 3 min test several times attacked with his wand when it seemed (looking at his skill bar) he could have casted a spell.

EDIT: Realized that with my WS build, if u use HoF and HoHF instead of TMS and SF u dont need Att points in Earth Prayers.
They can go into Mysticism then.
Using Scythe Mastery 12+1+2 and Mysticism 12+1, testing against MoD then gives 63dps avg.

LifeInfusion · Feb 28, 2011, 02:17 AM // 02:17

The best way to go about it is to multiply all armor reduced damage (autoattacks and staggering force, etc.) by 0.707 for 100 armor for cracked armor and 100 armor. (For autoattacks disable all thing except IAS, although you have damage loss due to casting.)

You are correct, Burning doesn't stack.

Also MOD is accurate to about 5-10DPS due to wanding in between and also weapon damage ranges.

Your Searing Flames number seems kind of low. You might not be running fast recharge mods? Also Glowing Signet is going to slow your damage due to aftercast (0.75 second delay+glowing signet cast time).

dagrdagaz · Mar 02, 2011, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Your Searing Flames number seems kind of low. You might not be running fast recharge mods? Also Glowing Signet is going to slow your damage due to aftercast (0.75 second delay+glowing signet cast time).

The SF hero i used uses a wand with an of Memory on it, thats it.
I'll have to try testing the SF build again then, with Glowing Signet disabled, and a 40/40 combo, wand/focus or staff.